A/B/Y With GCX

planethood · **Joined:** Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:39 am **Posts:** 84

When I started the thread, I tried to keep things simple. I should have gone into more detail. As mentioned, I am running two amps. Amp#1 has TWO loops in it. The first loop is a serial loop. The second loop is a mixable parallel loop. Amp#2 has one serial loop on it. BTW...both fx units in the loops of Amp#1 can be run in stereo or mono. Additionally, my looper has stereo inputs and outputs as well (but I would have to mix them in some software on a computer to set them up).

In my current diagram, you can see exactly what I am talking about. The problem I am having is where to put the looper exactly. If I insert the ABC in the chain going into my serial loop, I am able to record everything EXCEPT the sounds from my fx unit. On that unit, I have things that I want to record on the looper. If I put the looper after the the 2nd loop, I am able to record the effects from the 2nd loop as well, but I can't mute the input signal to my amp #1.

I am open to all kinds of ideas to get the most out of this setup. My fx units in the loops can be run stereo or mono. When I just had one amp, it was best to set them to mono. From what I can tell, I am basically setup on a dual mono rig, not a true stereo rig. Right? I suppose that means my stereo fx are currently just being doubled instead of split (allowing my delays to ping pong back and forth). That is a whole nother level I probably don't want to dive into. I suppose it would require me to split my stereo fx units and send them to each amp seperately, which would require more loops, possibly a mixer, etc. Anyway...off that topic for now....

So what should I do with this? Any ideas?

Thank you for taking so much time and effort to help me out! I really appreciate it! I have been going crazy the last few days trying to figure this out...

planethood · **Joined:** Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:39 am **Posts:** 84

Sound Sculpture Applications:
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nyteowl · **Joined:** Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:53 am **Posts:** 572

planethood wrote:

...The problem I am having is where to put the looper exactly. If I insert the ABC in the chain going into my serial loop, I am able to record everything EXCEPT the sounds from my fx unit. On that unit, I have things that I want to record on the looper. If I put the looper after the the 2nd loop, I am able to record the effects from the 2nd loop as well, but I can't mute the input signal to my amp #1...

I am open to all kinds of ideas to get the most out of this setup. My fx units in the loops can be run stereo or mono. When I just had one amp, it was best to set them to mono. From what I can tell, I am basically setup on a dual mono rig, not a true stereo rig. Right? I suppose that means my stereo fx are currently just being doubled instead of split (allowing my delays to ping pong back and forth). That is a whole nother level I probably don't want to dive into. I suppose it would require me to split my stereo fx units and send them to each amp seperately, which would require more loops, possibly a mixer, etc. Anyway...off that topic for now....

So what should I do with this? Any ideas?4

Thank you for taking so much time and effort to help me out! I really appreciate it! I have been going crazy the last few days trying to figure this out...

I'm happy to help, because if I ever decide to go ahead and do this with my rig, I'll have all the bugs worked out ahead of time.

Yes, you are currently running a dual mono rig. If you ever do want to convert to a stereo rig the main point to consider is this: even though the effects in your GCX Loops may be stereo effects, unless you're using a stereo GCX you can only run those effects in Mono Mode, but the stereo effects after your GCX may be run stereo by returning the left and right signals to your two amps. Just something to think about for future reference.

Now if I understand correctly, you want whatever is getting recorded on the Looper to have already been processed by your effects unit(s). This I do not understand, because to me the important thing is getting the phrase recorded on the Looper, not when the phrase gets processed by the effects units.

The way you have it connected now, "after the 2nd loop," the signal is first fed to Amp2, then processed by the Effects chain, then recorded to the Looper, and finally returned to Amp2. However, using the connections I suggested yesterday, your signal would first be recorded by the Looper, then fed to Amp2, then processed by the effects unit, and then returned to Amp2. Either way, you will get the exact same processed signal returned to Amp2, so I don't see why you're averse to doing this, unless you want to solo using a totally different effects compliment from the looped phrase, which is a whole new ball game altogether, and IMHO, best served by two independent effects chains. Be that as it may, putting the A/B/Y box up front with the Looper as I suggested yesterday will give you the ability to record to the Looper while muting the signal to Amp1 which, if I understand you correctly, is what you want to do but cannot do now.

Obviously I've got nothing new to offer today, and respectfully suggest you try making the connections as described in my last post. For what you are trying to do, I firmly believe the best way to accomplish your goal is to put the ABCadabra and Looper up front.

planethood · **Joined:** Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:39 am **Posts:** 84

Quote:

Yes, you are currently running a dual mono rig. If you ever do want to convert to a stereo rig the main point to consider is this: even though the effects in your GCX Loops may be stereo effects, unless you're using a stereo GCX you can only run those effects in Mono Mode, but the stereo effects after your GCX may be run stereo by returning the left and right signals to your two amps. Just something to think about for future reference.

Yep. I understand this.

Quote:

Now if I understand correctly, you want whatever is getting recorded on the Looper to have already been processed by your effects unit(s). The way you have it connected now, "after the 2nd loop," the signal is first fed to Amp2, then processed by the Effects chain, then recorded to the Looper, and finally returned to Amp2. I don't see why you're averse to doing this, unless you want to solo using a totally different effects compliment from the looped phrase, which is a whole new ball game altogether, and IMHO, best served by two independent effects chains.

BINGO! You got it. I have to first record my phrase with my effects and preamp settings (running on both amps). Then, I want to solo over it with different effects and preamp options. For example, I record a rhythm track with a little bit of fuzz and chorus on it on my amp's clean channel. While it is playing back, I kick off the effects and kick on my new effects and amp channel. On my solo sound I have a boosted mid frequency, delay, and different volume while playing on the amp's dirty channel. During this time, the recorded signal is coming out of the second amp and my new signal is pumping through my first amp.

So....I ordered a rackmount preamp with stereo outs and a stereo poweramp. I am writing my schematic as we speak. Now can I do this? HA!!!

nyteowl · **Joined:** Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:53 am **Posts:** 572

planethood wrote:

BINGO! You got it. I have to first record my phrase with my effects and preamp settings (running on both amps). Then, I want to solo over it with different effects and preamp options. For example, I record a rhythm track with a little bit of fuzz and chorus on it on my amp's clean channel. While it is playing back, I kick off the effects and kick on my new effects and amp channel. On my solo sound I have a boosted mid frequency, delay, and different volume while playing on the amp's dirty channel. During this time, the recorded signal is coming out of the second amp and my new signal is pumping through my first amp.

So....I ordered a rackmount preamp with stereo outs and a stereo poweramp. I am writing my schematic as we speak. Now can I do this? HA!!!

Will this new gear replace one of the amps you are currently using, or is the new plan to convert your dual mono rig to stereo? Also, thanks for clarifying you want to solo using effects that are different from the effects used on the looped recording. Unfortunately, my position remains the same and I still believe the best way for you to accomplish what you want would be by putting the ABCadabra and Looper up front as previously described and using two independent effects chains, one for each amp. Probably not what you want to hear, but the money you're going to spend on that new preamp and power amp probably would have served you better were you to invest in a few new FX units. Be that as it may...

In the diagram you posted the other day, GCX Loop 2 apparently contains an effect labelled "weird." What exactly is that? Since there is a Fuzz unit on either side of it, I'm wondering if it may be an overdrive or distortion unit of some type, and if it is, you don't necessarily need to run those three pieces in the amp's FX Loop.

Getting back to the diagram, I'm also trying to understand why you've got Loops 1 thru 6 configured as illustrated. Your guitar signal goes into the Gate and from the Gate travels to the Loop 6 In jack. Loop 6 controls a Delay, and the Loop 6 Out goes to the Serial Loop return of Amp1. Your signal then exits via the Serial Loop Send jack, goes back to the Gate and from there it goes to the Loop 1 In jack. Then it goes through Loops 1 thru 5 inclusive, exits Loop 5 and goes to the Amp1 Input jack. What I'm seeing here is, if you took the Gate and all the effects in Loops 1 thru 6 out of the picture, you're basically running your guitar into the Serial Loop, then out of the Serial Loop to the Amp's Input jack. What's the logic behind that?

planethood · **Joined:** Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:39 am **Posts:** 84

nyteowl wrote:

Will this new gear replace one of the amps you are currently using, or is the new plan to convert your dual mono rig to stereo?

Yes. I am going the preamp + poweramp route now. I just used the other two amps originally to test things out (because I bought a cheap combo for my 2nd amp and tried to integrate with my current head).

There are two reasons for this....my main head+rack of effects includes the head and an 8 space fx rack on top. This things is HEAVY! If I were to use another regular amp head, I would need to get another case. Then, I would be lugging a lot of crap to shows and running cables all over the place. It makes more sense for me to have it all in one rack and wired up. Before integrating the second amp for the looper idea, I would simply pull the cover off my head and rack. Then, I would plug in 2-3 cables from my midi board and hook up the guitar cabinet. Setup was less than 5 minutes. I want to keep it that way. So, by going with a preamp+poweramp in a rack, I will be able to set it up the same way but only have to hook up two speaker cables. I am currently looking into trying to have my fx rack in one case and my preamp+poweramp in another case. That way, I could have one 8u rack for fx/switching and one 8u for the pre/power. Most likely, I will create some sort of patch panel on the back to be able to simply plug cables to connect one rack to the other. Not sure how to do this exactly, but I am researching on it. Anyway, this setup allows me to be able to carry all of my gear myself if needed (you never know when a band member will have the classic 'back troubles' the day of the show!).

nyteowl wrote:

Also, thanks for clarifying you want to solo using effects that are different from the effects used on the looped recording. Unfortunately, my position remains the same and I still believe the best way for you to accomplish what you want would be by putting the ABCadabra and Looper up front as previously described and using two independent effects chains, one for each amp. Probably not what you want to hear, but the money you're going to spend on that new preamp and power amp probably would have served you better were you to invest in a few new FX units. Be that as it may...

See my point above...the difference in price between selling my first head and combo to buying a preamp+poweramp is about 1k if I buy used. Yes, that is ALOT of money. However, it is also a much lighter option then you mentinoned. Plus, I am very happy with my current set of effects and don't want to go to the trouble of buying more, integrating them, powering them, and finding the space for them. I like to keep things fairly simple and light.
[/quote]

nyteowl wrote:

In the diagram you posted the other day, GCX Loop 2 apparently contains an effect labelled "weird." What exactly is that?

It is a Death by Audio Octave Clang.
[/quote]

nyteowl wrote:

Getting back to the diagram, I'm also trying to understand why you've got Loops 1 thru 6 configured as illustrated. Your guitar signal goes into the Gate and from the Gate travels to the Loop 6 In jack. Loop 6 controls a Delay, and the Loop 6 Out goes to the Serial Loop return of Amp1. Your signal then exits via the Serial Loop Send jack, goes back to the Gate and from there it goes to the Loop 1 In jack. Then it goes through Loops 1 thru 5 inclusive, exits Loop 5 and goes to the Amp1 Input jack. What I'm seeing here is, if you took the Gate and all the effects in Loops 1 thru 6 out of the picture, you're basically running your guitar into the Serial Loop, then out of the Serial Loop to the Amp's Input jack. What's the logic behind that?

I am not sure you are looking at it right. The gate is an ISP Decimator Pro Rack G. It has one input/output section to put on the front of the amp for 60cycle hum. The second input/output goes in a serial fx loop to cut out preamp hiss. So, my guitar signal goes into channel 1 and back out to the front of my signal flow in the GCX. Then, my signal flow goes out of GCX5, into my amp. Then it exits out of the amp's first fx loop, which is serial and into the Decimator's second channel. From there, it goes back into Loop 6. In that Loop, I have my mixable delay (so I can mix in the wet signal with the analog path). Then, it feeds back into the fx loop return. That is the only way I could incorporate both items post preamp in series. After that, the mixable parallel fx loop #2 feeds into loop 7. Then, it returns back to the amp. I that fx loop mixed 25% wet and 75% dry. My fx unit is set to 100% wet. This keeps my dry signal pumping through the amp and not being processed through the unit.

So....I am going with the preamp/poweramp option for the previous reasons. Unfortunately, I am going to also have to get a mixer to run my dry signal parallel with the fx wet signals now. Before, I was handling that mix with the knob on my amp. <bummer>. But, I think I can pick up a used Rane for around $100. I've used one in the past and it worked quite well.

I suppose I'll let you know how it goes once I figure out the exact routing. Thanks again!

nyteowl · **Joined:** Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:53 am **Posts:** 572

Okay, I can see now how I misinterpreted your diagram, but I had no way of knowing your "Gate" was an ISP Decimator Pro Rack G. Despite what it says in my signature, I happen to have one of those myself (the stereo model) and know how to make those connections.

Personally, I prefer to use a mixer to run my effects parallel, but I don't believe that's going to help with your Looper issue. I also see your point about not wanting to invest in additional effects, from both the financial and weight standpoints, because I like to keep things as simple and light as possible, too.

I'm sorry I wasn't more help, but all I can suggest at this point is to divide your "problems" into smaller chunks and try solving them individually. Forget about all of your effects for the time being and, once more, try moving the ABCadabra and Looper up front as I suggested a few days ago to see if you can record a loop, feed it to one amp, and let it repeat while soloing through the other amp. Once you get that signal flow under control, then you could experiment with effects placement.

Best of luck, and do let us know how you make out.

planethood · **Joined:** Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:39 am **Posts:** 84

Your input was very valuable, nyteowl. This is a drastic reorganization of my rig, but I am glad to take this step. I never anticipated adding all of my fx and the looper option when I first bought my GCX a few years ago. I'm simply at a crossroads on moving to another level.

BTW...may I ask what mixer you are using? I have considered a used Rane Sm26b, Rolls MX44, and RJM mini line mixer. The Rane's are cheap and good audio quality, but take up a full rack space. The Rolls has a lot of options in such a small package, but I'm sure of the sound quality. I also like that all of the inputs/outputs are on the back. Lastly, the RJM has very limited options but may sound the best. Of course, the Rolls is the cheapest, followed by the Rane (used), and followed by the RJM. Any suggestions?

nyteowl · **Joined:** Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:53 am **Posts:** 572

I'm using an Alesis MultiMix 8 Line. It's a 1-space, 8-channel Stereo mixer, which seems to offer the most bang for the buck for what I'm hoping to do down the road. I'm running a TC Electronics G-Major 2 in the mixer's FX loop.

A/B/Y With GCX

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